Leslie Stahl with Marjorie Taylor Greene on 60 Minutes: Theater with No Substance. The Distraction of Carrying on About Sideshows While Real Issues Are Too Non-TV to Address
April 15, 2023
I was thinking about the Marjorie Taylor Greene (R, GA) interview with Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes a few weeks back, I had no problem with the decision to interview her. When these momentary TV melodramas arise, they always die quickly, because there is always another melodrama waiting to take its place. That is too bad, sometimes it takes time to think about how to look at a particular momentary flash as providing some insight into political thought.
The ridiculous argument over who and who should not be part of any TV interview is a foolish issue, there were substantive issues that were missed in this interview—and that can matter. Admittedly, the interview was more theater than substance—and not just by Greene but also by Stahl. Stahl’s look of exasperation when Greene used the word “pedophile” associated with President Biden was an Oscar-worthy moment. Stahl acted like this was a shock to her. Why? Greene had said it enough that Stahl should not have been surprised. I got the feeling she acted surprised because there were people watching who may have heard it for the first time, so Stahl was acting for their sake, not hers. Stahl had to know that little reaction to Greene’s silly statement would play well in quick reruns of this whole 60 Minutes episode.
When Senator Joe Manchin (D, WV) said, “No one's above the law. But no one should be targeted by the law. Especially through the political process," regarding Donald Trump being charged in New York City, he was not saying anything serious from a legal point of view, he was just saying something to cover himself with voters in West Virginia. West Virginia voted for Trump by almost 40 percent more than Hillary Clinton in 2016 and the same against Joe Biden in 2020. No reason to do anything but make sure West Virginian voters still feel good about Manchin, so say a whole lot of nothing but something that sounded comforting to the voters back home. There was no reason to rile up voters who might then think about voting for whoever runs against him in the next election. Senator Mitt Romney (R, UT) did the same thing as Manchin with Republican voters in his state when he said, Trump’s prosecution in New York, “has stretched to reach felony criminal charges in order to fit a political agenda.” Utah in 2020 voted slightly more than 20 percent for Trump over Biden. No reason to believe what Romney said, just understand why he said it. Stahl’s expression of exasperation was much like that, aimed at a certain part of her audience-best described as a meaningless nothing.
To some extent, that is the point-this interview was TV drama, theater, it was Trump on The Apprentice with the audience waiting to see who gets fired. Substance was not part of this interview and that is a shame.
I looked at a specific exchange within this interview. That part of the conversation went as follows:
STAHL: That she thinks about the issues matters like preventing the government from going into default by raising the debt ceiling. Janet Yellen, the Treasury Secretary, says that if we don’t raise the debt ceiling, that this country will be thrown into an economic and financial catastrophe. And so I’m asking you if you are willing to risk that.
GREENE: You know what put us in an economic catastrophe is again, the people that have spent $31 trillion that force this situation to happen.
STAHL: Well, wait a minute. Trump is as much responsible for-
GREENE: I said everybody.
STAHL: … That as anybody. All right.
Greene: Everybody. Republicans, Democrats. It was all before I got here.
STAHL: Would you be willing to vote for compromise? In other words, raise some taxes?
GREEN: I don’t think we have a revenue problem in Washington. We have a spending problem.
STAHL: You know something? That’s glib. What does that mean? The two sides have to come together and hammer it out.
GREENE: Cut spending.
STAHL: Where you want to cut it?
GREENE: Covid bailout money and a lot of green energy spending.
A whole lot of nothing was said in his exchange—two serious issues briefly, if casually mentioned, the debt ceiling and cutting government spending (two different issues and I hope Greene understands that) but Greene managed to get in a few licks about COVID spending and green energy. Greene had a moment to sound like she said something meaningful—she did not, but it made for good TV. I am surprised she did not say food stamps were going to be cut. This was where the Stahl interview, added to much of what passes for news on TV mostly consists of little substance. It might be possible to say that 60 Minutes let its viewers down, but theater on TV news with no policy substance is the norm.
60 Minutes understood that they could not address issues with Greene in a substantive way since that would run counter to the theatrical masquerading as news. This very casual, meaningless exchange between Stahl and Greene simply adds to the belief that many have that cutting government spending is somehow an easy thing to do and that, in many ways, it will have no effect on them. The quick reference to the debt ceiling, a potentially serious financial issue if the United States has to default on some things and then more if not resolved, should have been addressed with Greene to see if she grasps the seriousness of any possible default.
A 1984 book, 60 Minutes: The Power and the Politics of America’s Most Popular TV News Show, by Axel Madsen, made the point that 60 Minutes was more entertainment and less journalism, so watching this episode of the long-running series (which first aired on CBS in 1968) is not a new point but returns to a criticism where substance is missing, and style and entertainment prevail. The criticism that preceded the episode, focused on whether Greene should have been interviewed at all, and the criticism after the interviewed aired, focused on how Stahl interacted with Greene, both are sideshow issues that highlight little of importance.
A Vanity Fair piece that was critical of Leslie Stahl for not “pushing back” against Greene when she referred to Democrats as “pedophiles” never said how exactly Stahl was supposed to push back and if she did, would it have made any difference. The overall gist of this Vanity Fair article, however, never addressed the lack of substance related to any public policy issues. Rather the emphasis was on the lack of some level of back-and-forth banter that was missing.
A reporter had an exchange with a voter in the Georgia Congressional 14th District, Greene’s district. The exchange went in such a way that indicated the disconnect that people have with what they get, and often desperately need, from government and how they look at their government:
VOTER: I now get Medicare and love it because it’s far better than what I got with the VA.
REPORTER: Should Medicare cover more people?
VOTER: No! If you expand it, we won’t have enough medical services for everyone and we’ll have to pay more taxes.
REPORTER: Would you have liked to get Medicare at an earlier age?
VOTER: Of course! Who wouldn’t?
I wonder if Greene seriously believes that cutting COVID spending and green energy will do it and move the federal budget toward a nice balance between revenue and spending. Stahl could have had an exchange where she began to press Greene to address those difficult choices all politicians try to avoid, after all she knew in advance, she was going to address the issue of the raising the debt ceiling since Greene is part of the group of Republicans in the House of Representatives that is preventing the increase in the debt ceiling from happening. Medicare is 13 percent of federal spending, any changes to this program will be severely felt by a lot of people but would also significantly affect government spending. Republicans in the House have stated Medicare is not in any of their plans to cut government spending, but besides being clear on that, they are not clear on anything else regarding cutting government spending.
It is interesting, however, just to raise the issue of including Medicare in any proposal to cut government spending, since one of Greene’s constituents is such a supporter of the program. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) in one of its reoccurring pieces addressing Options for Reducing the Deficit, has proposed increasing the premiums for Medicare Part B (which covers expenses such as medical services and certain preventive services, exams can be included here). The 2023 standard monthly premium is $164.90, which is a decrease from the $170.10 in 2022, but it was $148.50 in 2021. No doubt many will see the wisdom in the CBO’s recommendation and support it because they want to do their part to help reduce the deficit. Based on the CBO projection, this would save $72 billion by 2032.
The Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security (CARES) Act signed into law in 2020 by then President Trump, came to $2.2 trillion, a great deal of money of which Georgia got around $4.2 billion. President Biden signed the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021 (ARPA) which added another $1.9 trillion, this program complements the CARES Act. This money flows through different federal agencies such as the Small Business Administration, the Department of Education, and the Department of Agriculture. Through the CARES Act (separate from ARPA) more than $9 million went to Chattanooga County in 2020, one of the ten whole counties (there is also one partial county) in Georgia’s 14th Congressional district—again Greene’s district. Polk County, another one in Greene’s Congressional district, got almost $16 million in 2020 from the CARES Act. Greene probably wanted to take the time to say that her constituents did not need financial help from the federal government during the height of COVID but getting in a few propaganda licks about COVID spending and green energy, was about being “on message” echoing a party line.
A report in April 2022, as the death rate from COVID, began to top 1 million, stated that people in poorer counties died at almost twice the rate of people in richer counties. In the case of Georgia 14th Congressional district, the poverty rate is 14.7 percent. Greene’s district is not the poorest in Georgia (one Georgia Congressional district exceeds a 24 percent poverty rate) but there are counties in the country with significantly lower poverty rates.
I am sure that Greene disapproved of the direct payment to individuals that came with the CARES Act. Certainly, it must have eaten at her insides that individuals with adjusted gross incomes below $75,000 got a $1,200 check. One report addressing the CARES Act defined it as “relief”:
Relief addresses immediate fallout while stimulus aims to restore robust economic activity. This bill is relief; it cushions people and businesses from the immediate losses caused by COVID-19 and makes it easier for them to comply with public health guidelines and mandates.
Notice by this point in this essay the superficial nonsense that was in this 60 Minutes segment. A public that needs to develop a deeper understanding of how to look at issues was entertained. Instead of questioning where the substance was in this basically banal exchange, one critic felt the need to clearly indicate the theatrical situation by stating, “I thought Lesley Stahl was off her game.”
Green energy refers to anything that is associated with a renewable resource. The aim is to reduce toxic greenhouse gases. Green energy is in the Department of Energy (DOE) and budgetary resources jumped significantly over several years. In FY 2019 $56.9 trillion were the department’s budgetary resources, which increased to $61.1 trillion by FY 2021 and then jumped considerable in FY 2021 to $130 trillion and $161 trillion in FY 2023. Of the FY 2023 DOE’s budgetary resources, approximately $49 billion goes to things such as National Nuclear Security Administration and Departmental Administration, green energy spending is in, no doubt, the part of the category titled “Energy Programs” which comes to $112 billion. Within this broad category, Energy Programs, are ten different subcategories, green energy probably primarily falls within the category titled “Energy Efficiency and Renewables” which comes to $27 billion. Suddenly, we went from trillions to billions and my use of the words “probably primarily falls” simply is a way of acknowledging that some green energy spending might also be covered elsewhere in the DOE budget. How much did Greene want to cut in green energy spending, assuming she even has the faintest idea how to understand the breakdown of the DOE budget.
Budget cutting is about chipping away, not slashing. Budget control is even more tricky since it involves working with a baseline of projected spending, together with projections about revenue (which assumes variables about how well or how poorly the economy is going to do over several years to generate that revenue). Jump ahead to those several years down the road, and we all hope a good economy brings in more revenue than expected to help reduce (maybe slightly) the budgetary deficit. Of course, that assumes that there are no changes to any programs. So, at this point you, or maybe someone in your family on Medicare, want to do your/their part and encourage your Congressperson to push for increases in your Medicare Part B premiums because you know that you want the budgetary deficit to come down and, after all, we are all in this together and you want to do your part to help reduce the deficit. Or you can just play the game of assuming there is government spending out there that you do not like so cut that, like Greene citing her choice for spending cuts based on her ideological beliefs (Covid and green energy).
Play the game Greene wants to play, cut what you do not like, and the budget will magically head toward balanced, and your government money will not be touched. Government spending associated with Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, agricultural subsidies, Small Business Administration loans, the National Levee Safety Program, federal-aid Highway Program funds, the $2,253 in federal aid Georgia is getting per resident in FY 2023 (although another source puts that figure at $8,250 per resident, how to count federal aid probably affects these differences in amount), or any host of other programs, however, is painful to seriously address. Slightly more than 37 percent of all general revenue being spent in FY 2023 in Georgia are funds from the federal government. No doubt Greene is mad to know that and wants it to end. I assume Greene knows that more than one-third of the money Georgia spends on its citizens, is federal government money—I am having trouble trying to figure out what she knows and if she is learning much as a member of Congress. On the job training is, in fact, part of what relatively new members of Congress go through. This is a difficult job and requires learning a great deal about many different things. Having had the opportunity to discuss with former legislators what they did, makes one appreciate the long hours they put in to do the job well.
One thing a legislator learns early, however, is to try to avoid letting your constituents know some of the pain that might go along with serious moves to reduce federal government spending. If you are a normal politician Democrat/Republic, liberal/conservative, pick one, you really do not want to talk too much about the pain your voters will feel if budget cuts are focused on where cuts would significantly need to be made to reduce government spending—better to play games with them and tell them about all the “wasteful” government spending out there, just do not go through it too precisely.
The silliness of whether Greene should have been on 60 Minutes, whether Stahl was off “her game,” or once the word “pedophile” was uttered, Greene needed to be verbally beaten into submission, are sideshows. The debt ceiling is a real issue that can affect us all. The budgetary deficit can only be addressed when we understand we are all in the same lifeboat. If there is anything I got out of this foolish interview it is that Marjorie Taylor Greene is on a different wavelength, immature and irresponsible, quite unlike many policymakers, both Democrat and Republican who take their positions seriously and understand the decisions they make can affect many. Hopefully, Greene does not contribute to tipping that lifeboat over, with all of us in it.
The Insane that Just Keeps on Giving
Unrelated to her 60 Minutes interview, Greene just continues to say stupid stuff. The young airman, Jake Teixeira, arrested in conjunction with the release of classified information about the Ukraine War, which might harm the United States and Ukraine, Greene posted a text that partially stated:
Jake Teixeira is white, male, christian, and antiwar.
That makes him an enemy to the Biden regime.
The reasoning behind her justifying making such a statement raises questions about how she evaluates serious issues—in this case someone who used their security clearance to post classified warfare information online. My saying Greene is immature, might be a too kind to say about her.
NOTES
Balancing Everything, Most Federally Dependent States-A Complete Rundown (March 3, 2023): https://balancingeverything.com/most-federally-dependent-states/
CARES AND HEROES ACTS FOR GA, Hank Johnson, Congressman for Georgia’s 4th District: https:// hankjohnson.house.gov/serving-you/cares-heroes-acts-ga. In here there is a link that breaks down the spending in different Georgia counties and other Georgia governments.
Congressional Budget Report, Options For Reducing The Deficit, 2023 to 2032—Volume I: Larger Reductions (December 7, 2022): https:// www.cbo.gov/budget-options/58625
COVID-19: Resources for Tracking Federal Spending, Congressional Research Service (July 31, 2020): https:// crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN11407
Cabel Ecarma, “Marjorie Taylor Green Hijacked every minute on 60 Minutes,” Vanity Fair (April 3, 2023): https:// www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/04/marjorie-taylor-greene-hijacked-60-minutes
Grace Enda, William Gale, Claire Haldeman, “Careful or Careless? Perspectives on the CARES Act,” Brookings (March 27, 2020): https:// www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/03/27/careful-or-careless-perspectives-on-the-cares-act/
Roger Friedman, “Ratings: ’60 Minutes’ with Marjorie Taylor Greene Down 33% from Last Week, 2nd Lowest Episode of This Season,” Showbiz 411 (April 3, 2023): https:// www.showbiz411.com/2023/04/03/ratings-60-minutes-with-marjorie-taylor-greene-down-33-from-last-week-2nd-lowest-episode-of-this-season
Barbara Koeppel, “Rise of the right in Georgia’s 14th district,” Le monde diplomatique (December 2021): https:// mondediplo.com/2021/12/12georgia-usa
Ed Pilkington, “Covid has devastating toll on poor and low-income communities in US,” The Guardian (April 4, 2022): https:// www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/04/us-covid-devastating-toll-poor-low-income-communities
USASPENDING.gov, “Department of Energy (DOE),” (February 28, 2023): https:// www.usaspending.gov/agency/department-of-energy?fy=2023
Jason Walczak, “State and Local Government Funding Under the CARES Act,” Tax Foundation (April 1, 2020): https://taxfoundation.org/federal-coronavirus-aid-to-states-under-cares-act/
World Population Review, Federal Aid by State 2023: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/federal-aid-by-state
“‘60 Minutes’: News vs. Entertainment,” The Morning Call (January 19, 1986): https:// www.mcall.com/1986/01/19/60-minutes-news-vs-entertainment/. The book can be found by anyone interested, I thought I would reference an article which is an exchange between Don Hewitt, producer of 60 Minutes and Morley Safer, one of the shows journalists/interviewers. This exchange discusses the book.